Can a bakery legally make their staff stay during a fire alarm if there is a possibility that it is a false alarm?

Question

I work in a fairly large bakery factory for context. So the policy used to be, that if you hear a fire alarm sound, everybody out to the fire point in a calm, orderly fashion. Now they have decided that in order to save product in the event of a false alarm, that the managers & the mixing staff (“mixing staff” are not bosses to the “bakery ops”, but they do earn more money so I guess seen as more senior), & the bakery ops have to continue as normal on the line until 6 minutes have elapsed. In which a second alarm will sound & then the “essential”, yet least paid staff, will make their way outside. It should be said also that in training we were shown a video of how fast a fire can grow from a small &  seemingly harmless, to an inescapable inferno. If memory serves it was something like 6-8 minutes. The logic being that “90% of the time, it’s a false alarm”. Now I was made to sign this new policy training sheet, but I don’t feel like taking even a 1% risk of burning to death for a few hot dog buns to be honest. My question is, can they legally do this? Will they legally be able to fire me if I ignore this new rule & leave the line to get to safety when the managers do? It seems to have gone backwards in terms of fire safety. Is there some kind of body I can consult?

Rosa Traynor · Accepted Answer

First port of call should be The Health and Safety Executive, discuss this with them.

Presumably you aren't part of a union, otherwise you could have discussed it with your union rep.

Alternatively, contact an employment lawyer.

From the sound of it, your company is breaking basic health and safety, as when a fire alarm goes off, it's mandatory for ALL STAFF to evacuate at the same time, you never tier the escape....to save lives.

I would think that there's a case to be had here, sounds very shady.

Answer

NAL - I would report this new policy to your local (to the factory) fire department.

Answer

Woolworths learned, the hard way, what happens when fire alarms are ignored.

I would be inclined to, promptly, contact the Fire Safety Inspector/Fire Safety Enforcement Officer (the title may vary) for the Fire & Rescue Service for the service that covers the geographic location of the premises. The FRS will ensure the plans are safe, and advise/enforce otherwise when appropriate.

Answer

You are a bakery factory...Fire + Flour dust = a terrible time.

HSE and Union - let them have the fun chats.

Answer

This is common in large factories and power stations that I work in. The first alarm warns you there may be a fire and to carry on working, but prepare to evacuate. The first alarm is investigated, and then, if necessary the second alarm is raised if the alarm is genuine.

Steven Bassett

9th February 2022

+10

13 upvotes

Answer

Thing is, in this current climate people are hanging into their jobs, for dear life - management are no exception. If somebody who has an ear of the director(s) makes a suggestion, then other will agree to it, for fear of their jobs.

It's an inhumane idea, to tier fire evacuation and if implemented, could potentially be a criminal case. That's also why I suggested a consultation with an employment and lawyer, you can normally get a free session with one, if you ask and specify the importance of the free consultation.

Overall, the HSE should see this as a huge red light and put their butts into action, especially as you've practically been forced to sign this mandate out of fear for your job, that carries more weight than you realise.

This is an awful situation and wish you the best in your endeavours, but you should really consider looking for another job.

Answer

Get everyone to walk out when the first alarm goes off what are the management going to do fire all of you. If they evacuate you do to your lives are worth just as much as the so called management's.

Answer

Call your local fire station.
They will be all over this!

Also call your local HS executive

Answer

INAL but if management is evacuating, then I'm evacuating.

If they believe there is a real threat at the first alarm, enough for them to leave the building, surely all staff should do the same.

If they believe the first alarm is just a warning and there's no need to evacuate, just be ready to do so, then surely they should stay in the building until the 2nd goes off as well.

Make sure you get a copy of the new policy or a picture as proof in case anything comes from it. If the policy clearly states you are to stay working while management evacuate, then I'd send a copy (blank any personal info) to the fire department local to your work as others suggested.

I'm sure they would be interested to know a business dealing with flammable materials is telling staff to ignore a fire alarm for 6 minutes.

Answer

So if it’s in the UK you can have an investigation period of up to 6 minutes before all the alarms go off (FIA regulation guidelines). I think it can actually go up to 10 but need approval of certain people

So although it’s not great to stand around waiting they are perfectly within their right. You’ll be surprised how many places do this. Schools, Hospitals etc

Answer

Bro I’d be bolting out the door assuming it wasn’t a test

Speak to your health and safety team or HSE or ACAS

Answer

It could just be badly worded. Single fire alarm, the fire marshals have 6 minutes to check if its real and send out a second alarm if still going after 6 minutes everyone evacuates.

To be fair it's probably a good rule, it stops the fire alarm going off for 20 seconds then when someone then finds it a false alarm and turns it off and then loads of confusion and people wandering round as no one knows what to do.

Alarm goes for x seconds and then stops, false alarm

Alarm goes then stops the goes off again, get out

Alarm goes for 6 minutes, get out

ex-fire marshal, trust me there is nothing worse than an alarm going to 20 seconds and then getting turned off.

Answer

Are you sure it isn't more like a traditional 2-stage alarm? These are very common in retail, airports and factories.

First stage alarm of some kind, fire marshalls check the panel and check to see if it is real. If it is real they move to stage 2 and the building is evacuated. It is possible that it is UP TO 6 mins, in the worst case, but usually faster. If it is a false alarm the panel is reset.

If so that's quite common, I think the detail here is important.

Answer

I worked for a company that had a similar policy. It was a matter of cost as everyone leaving the factory meant another change of white overalls and gloves as well as the time on production lines.

Then they were purchased and the new owners and their Health and Safety team were horrified by that policy.  
The new company had actually experienced a factory fire and could find absolutely no justification for this additional risk to human life in the event of an actual fire.

Someone pranked and pulled the fire alarm at least once a month. That was another issue for management to deal with.

I would notify HSE and ask them to audit and review the change in policy.

This is a trade off of the health and safety role at the company v. senior management.

It demonstrates perhaps how HSE is viewed by the company. I would like to see them justify this to the HSE directly.

Answer

NAL - you can safely have rolling evacuations but they would need to be approved and signed off as safe and you have to have, I believe, minimum two fire doors between each "section".

This is based off of memory from working in a hospital and how they do fire evacuations without taking every patient out of the hospital.

Answer

NAL

I believe that most large buildings are often evacuated in sections, with some sections unaware there is even an alarm going off until other areas have left.  This actually decreases evacuation time as there is less congestion.

Answer

This sounds pretty sketchy.

To give a perspective from surgery industry: in theatre's that I've worked in (UK based) there is a similar policy but for a very different reason, if the fire alarm goes off the duty manager and/or technician will investigate the cause of the alarm and of they don't cancel it within 2 minutes (variable depending on theatre's, most are less, a cinema I used to work at had 2 minutes, then each screen would begin about 1 minutes apart to help manage traffic) a full evacuation is started. The reason for this is to prevent panic when you have 2 thousand people in a room panicing to gtfo and trampling those in the way (ever heard the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theatre"?), this is usually overridden by the call points as theatre's often have false alarms caused by atmospheric effects.

If it takes more than 6 minutes to investigate an alarm then they need to improve their risk management. As it stands this is ridiculous and you should get HSE involved immediately.

Answer

No, that's not how fire safety works.

They're describing a two knock system which needs to be designed in from the start.

You need to speak to higher management or HSE, maybe even the local fire brigade?

Answer

A staged evac procedure is common in lots of buildings, particularly in manufacturing and public spaces to manage the alarm.  A 6 min delay is in line with British Standard code of practice.

The fire risk assessment should identify whether this is an appropriate strategy or not. I'd ask to have that confirmed if you are worried.

Ideally the fire risk assessment would be completed by a third party accredited company to ensure competency and  credibility.

Answer

Let HSE and your local fire brigade know. The fire brigade safety officers analyse escape distances, fire strategy etc for most if not all public buildings and flats. They'll come down on your bosses like they need to. This strategy is ridiculous unless your building is specifically designed with a stay put strategy in place this will get people killed

Answer

I've got experience of fire policies in manufacturing environments, albeit not food manufacturing. The all encompassing policy document is usually termed a fire strategy, and considers the fire risk given of particular buildings, given the sprinkler coverage, fire detection systems, smoke ventilation, building layout (ie size, number of exits, distance to exits), potentially flammable materials amongst a number of factors.

It's common for buildings such as manufacturing to have a 'delay' on the fire alarm in case of a faulty detection device etc. Note that the alarm wouldn't actually sound, and most building occupants wouldn't even be aware of the situation. The first response team responsible for the fire system (usually security or a maintenance team), would investigate the area and either cancel the alarm or activate the sounders/siren on the alarm accordingly. If neither prior to the delay period elapsing (6 minutes in this case), then the sounders would automatically activate. If multiple fire detectors went off this would likely trigger the alarm automatically and override the delay period. This is designed to prevent false alarms which can be costly in lean manufacturing environments, or where unanticipated downtime would cause scrap/waste.

In terms of the legal side of it, a qualified fire engineer should have compiled the fire strategy (which details the delay period to be programmed into the fire system). This fire strategy should have been made available to the local building control authority. The Health and Safety team responsible for the site should have a copy of this, the content of which accurately reflects the building layout and the configuration of the fire system.

Any reasonable fire engineer expects the building occupants to exit the building upon hearing the alarm, and I doubt building control/HSE would accept the strategy otherwise.

I would recommend that you request a copy of the fire strategy. If you find that the content doesn't reflect actual condition the building layout and the configuration of the fire system, then inform both the local building control authority and HSE. I would also ask your manager to confirm in writing that you are to remain on the line should the alarm sound, and forward this to HR and the site H&S team with your concerns.

As a side note, it's quite possible that your management has been involved in a conversation which they don't full understand, and think that you should be staying in place when the alarm is sounding, not understanding that it isn't actually sounding.

Obviously a common sense note - if there is a fire (that isn't part of the standard food manufacturing process) then the occupants should leave the building upon sight of the fire or being told by other occupants.

Answer

Having written fire policies for large buildings with thousands of people in them and worked with many Fire Service representatives I can say that you'd be surprised how flexible fire policies can be.

The old school style 'get out when the bell rings' doesn't work for many buildings, especially ones with complex operations and large numbers of people.  It's perfectly reasonable to have an initial alarm which alerts the duty management to go to the fire detection zone, make a determination about whether it's a fire or not, and if so, is evacuation required.  Also, with large numbers of people, you might want a system where a Manager chooses an evacuation route that avoids the fire area rather than potentially have hundreds or thousands blunder into it.

As the Fire Service will tell your management, it all comes down to a robust risk assessment, procedures, planning and regular tests/rehearsals.  There aren't concrete rules and what one Fire Service Officer will approve won't get by another.  In any case, final responsibility will rest with the management of the building.

Answer

Hi, ignore all the comments here. I'm a fire engineer and can tell you that a co-incident (i.e. 2nd knock) cause and effect evacuation strategy is perfectly normal for large complex buildings. It would need to be demonstrated to be safe to fulfil their legislative obligations but they are quite common for commercial buildings such as factories and large shops.

The change should be documented in an updated FRA. If the undertook any building alterations then Building Control would have also reviewed the arrangements.

Answer

Lots of raised points here. Something I'd add is its become quite normal and safe (I manage health and safety, amongst other things) to do phased evacuation based on activation point. However, this sounds crazy.

Ask for copy of fire risk assessment. Contact your union. Speak to HSE. Contact factory local fire department. If you signed copy of new policy, ensure you have a copy as evidence of their changes.

Answer

I think HSE would be your first port of call. In no way would I adherence to such a policy especially in an environment dealing with high volumes of flour.

Allied Bakeries perhaps?

Answer

Is there any increased fire risk that would be caused by bakery ops leaving on first alarm? Do they need to instigate a shutdown procedure to make things safe, for example?

Answer

Hi OP I work as a fire risk assessor and a health and safety auditor. Do not contact the HSE. They are not the prosecutor for fire. If you have concerns about the policy contact your local fire brigade.

Also when the factory was built a document called a fire strategy document would have been produced by a fire engineer. This document document basically informs all fire safety related decisions including the requirements for evacuation so if you can try to get a copy of this document.

Answer

I am not a lawyer but I am a fire engineer who designs fire strategies for buildings.

Is it possible that this has been misunderstood or explained poorly to you?  It is very common to operate a ‘double knock’ system where the first fire alarm does not sound an alarm but instead triggers an investigation period.  If another alarm activates, the investigation period elapses or the fire is confirmed then a full evacuation occurs.

This may seem counterintuitive but is actually more effective in buildings where false alarms are common due to the fact that people take the alarms more seriously.

From a legal perspective the building management cannot just change how the buildings fire strategy works on a whim.  They must undertake a fire risk assessment.  The relevant law is the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005.  You can ask to see the fire risk assessment and I would expect in a situation like this that the assessment would be carried out by a qualified professional i.e someone on a professional register of fire risk assessors or fire engineers.

If they are not able to produce a fire risk assessment then the fire service can undertake enforcement action including closing the building down or prosecution.  The people to contact if you are not satisfied that the management have undertaken an adequate fire risk assessment is the local fire service not the HSE as some previous commenters have said.